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Episode 11: Special Needs Planning with Eric Boland

Listen to Episode 11 of Sheepdog Financial HERE!

In this episode of Sheepdog Financial, we have Eric Boland.   Eric is the founder of Ferocious Finance.  He spent 20 years as a management accountant, accounting manager, and controller before going into financial advisory. He is a parent to 2 special-needs children and Eric’s father has Alzheimer's. These personal connections give him insight and passion for financial planning for special-needs families.

Scott:                   Today on Sheepdog Financial podcast, we have Eric Boland with us. Eric, how you doing today?

Eric:                      I'm doing great, Scott. Thanks for having me on.

Scott:                   Eric is a specialist in special needs planning, so why don't you chat a little bit about your background and what got you down this road to where you are now?

Eric:                      Yeah, certainly I started out as a a management accountant and for those who aren't familiar with, with that basically, you know, you've got CPAs, which are Republican accountants, what everyone thinks about, but then you've got all the guys who work behind the scenes of the various companies, you know, actually doing the books and preparing their financial statements and all that. And that's what I did. We started out in Albuquerque, New Mexico was with a pretty small company down there. Then I came up to Denver, started working for a pretty big company, was rapidly growing at the time and one of the tech startups do pretty well with that. And I ended up, I mean I stayed with them for a total of 10 years due to stents with them and I think over a total of 13 years for me to get my 10 years in. Went to a couple of other places along the way in their dnd over there. I was working, you know, I managed a group of about 22 people and we did the, did all of the financials for, for certain aspects of the business. And some of them were pretty pretty good sized chunks and one of those was marketable investment securities, which is basically investments. And that's kind of where I really got started looking at investments and I was building up a war chest, essentially the CEO was out hunting for companies to buy and part of my job was working with the other finance guys. They would issue that, you know, big, multibillion dollar on placements and, and I would take that cash and invested in some short term securities until our CEO picked a target and then we'd go after it. Towards the end there I was managing about $15 billion. And so, you know, Kinda big numbers there. So you spent some time in management accounting. How'd you get your way into as a financial planner? Yeah, well that was kind of interesting because, so what happened is while I was working at the, at the Big Tech Company my son had a, well he was injured, basically hopped off a couple of steps in our front yard, twisted his ankle. He, we went in, had, did the normal stuff, you know, they booted him up for a couple of weeks and then it wasn't feeling any better. And you know, his pain had not gone down, the swelling was all there still in all that kind of stuff. And so then we started down this path where, you know, okay, it's, let's get an x ray now there's nothing broken. Let's get an MRI. Okay. You know, and the insurance company we were with at the time, I'm going to guess that it's probably similar to the Ba in the sense that you have to go in and talk to the primary care physician and then they give you a referral to any specialists and all of those things take time. And so what would happen then is, you know, so the process is to get him the X-ray, had to meet with the primary care and then go over and you're like three days later, then we could get the x-ray and then you know, another few days for the people to read it and tell us what's up. And then back to the primary care for him to say, okay, you need to go get an MRI. And you know, so each one of these things is like a week or two in between. And you know, once they cut and figure out anything and they'd set for a triple phase bone scan and basically that's, we may came back and said that he has something called complex regional pain syndrome is a neurological pain disorder. And in his case, it was triggered by the injury. And so that was, that was kind of the start of my foray into special needs, but not into the planning part of it. Right. And so what happened then is that, you know, as my son's going through this and my wife is taking him for these treatments and then I was having to take some, some time to go and, and do other things, you know, holding the household together. And most specifically, I mean, biggest thing that happened for us was that my wife took our son to Cleveland to the Cleveland Clinic. He did a big, there was a big three week inpatient pain treatment program that they had. You know, this pediatric, it's a pediatric pain unit, very, very good doctors and stuff. So he went in there for three weeks. And so during that time, my, my daughter, I were curing in Denver and I'm dropping her at daycare in the morning and picking her up in the evenings and going to work all day, you know, normal stuff. Right. But you know, what happens is I drop her off at six 30 in the morning, get to the office by seven and then I had to leave about 6:00 PM in order to pick her up by six 30 which is when the daycare closes. And long story short is my boss basically threw a fit over that. And the fact that I wasn't coming back to the office after getting her. And so we kind of headed out and from there I was put onto part time and you know, as all their, their whole processes, how do we get rid of the bad apple now? Right. Cause you know, 11 hour day is not long enough. So you know, so from there, you know, I w I went, I did a few consulting gigs and you know, was trying to, to find another way. You kind of back into my career if you will, given all of this situation going on with my son. So then I, I happened to get a call from a fellow at a financial advisory firm who suggested that I come and work there, you know, and I was looking for, you know, what am I going to do next? So that was like, okay, well that sounds good. And you know, so in a way it was kinda like a random chance. And yet at the same time when I was seriously looking at it, you know, I had several other things that I was looking at as well. And so it was like, okay, you know, this is an opportunity to go and work with people, you know, as opposed to working for a corporation. Ha, you're actually working with the people that, you know, our, our on the ground dealing with the issues and you know, just being able to get one on one with and help people. And then also, you know, I was looking at that, okay, you know, I'll have x number of clients. And so in a sense, all of those people are my bosses and any one of them can fire me, but I'm not going to lose 100% of my income when they do, you know? And then it, of course, it always, it kind of fit a lot with my background with the accounting finance world and having done the big investment portfolio that I was like, you know, all of these things, kind of the stars kind of aligning, if you will. So I was like, okay, you know what, this sounds good. I got into financial planning and you know, very quickly realized that doing special needs planning would be know that would just be the cat's meow for me. Right. You know, with everything going on in my life, you know, I'm like, I'm having to figure a lot of this stuff out myself, you know? So just being able to take that experience and help other people out with it, pretty rewarding so far. So, yeah, experiencing it can help a lot more than just learning about it to be able to help other people with it. [inaudible] I mean, that's you. There's that was a thing that I saw a few months ago. You know, the difference between like, if you're a special needs parent they said it's like down in a hole and you know, a doctor or you'd want a financial advisor or someone would come along and they may throw you out rope. Um but another special needs parent comes along, they're going to climb down in the hole with you. They're going to grab a ladder, you know, and be like, okay, you know what? We got this, we're gonna, we're gonna get down here with you and we're going to help you get out. And you know, it is kind of the difference, if you will. So just getting, you know, as I've gotten more into the community, I've seen and there's just so many people who are some willing to go above and beyond. It just amazes me on a daily basis. You know, you don't see that so much in the general population where people will just drop everything to come and help. Right. But you get in that special needs community and the people who are like, well yeah, I mean I've got 14 doctor's appointments this week, but I can come over in, you know, spending an hour with you to give you some respite time or whatever it is. So it's just amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott:                   So I guess just give us a quick overview of where we are as far as the current environment. As far as special needs planning. I imagine special needs probably is a pretty broad term that runs the gamut from less severe case to a much more severe case. So where are we right now with special needs planning? Well so we're special needs plenty each got, so they, you talk about the gamut. They're running that gamut of the different the spectrum, if you will, of different disabilities. You know, it ranges very much, you know, you've got people that are classified as high functioning autism when your, you know, their special need may mean that, that they need some sort of special accommodation at work, you know, when they get to that age, but they don't really need much. You know, there's not a medical thing, there's, there may not be any need for special needs trust. You know, there, there just may not be a whole lot that's kind of outside of the ordinary. All the way to, you know, you've got, you know, obviously autism runs quite a wide spectrum, you know, all the way to the, the kids who are nonverbal and you know, who rely on a clicker or a bleak, you know, blink communication system and you know, being one of those parents, it can be very challenging. Um and then you've gotta look at, you start looking at all of the different things that you have to do with those kids. You know, we've got, there's your, you've got down syndrome cerebral palsy. I mean there's so many different conditions out there that can lead a child or, or an adult into a special needs situation. I have a very good friend here in town who's a he's an attorney who specializes in ski accidents. Well, your wet, I mean those kids in what happens, right? Some kids come and cruising down the ski hill and and cracks someone and now we've got a TBI traumatic brain injury and this person is going to need some level of assistance for the rest of their life. So you know, trying to put all that together and say, okay, what is it going to, you know, a lot of that is boiling it all down to a single number for our court case. You know, so we, we've got a very wide spectrum and things, you know, like I said, like with a TBI it can happen very suddenly. You know, you're probably quite familiar with injuries that happened very suddenly, you know? And I think that people in the military see that a lot as well. I mean, you come home from overseas with a TBI or PTSD, missing limbs, you know, I mean, all right. It runs quite a rewind spectrum mirror as well. And you know, with the VA you've got plenty of, there's plenty of argument about how much care you actually get there, but it's basically paid for. Again, you're going to have the things where you have to go back to the primary care and then go to the specialists. Oh that right. And so it's going to be time consuming to get the care and it may mean that you have to travel to be close to the VA hospital in many ways. Just like a lot of our special needs families have to do. I know of people who, yeah, they lived up in the mountains somewhere in one of these small towns. I guess some of the more famous ones like ask them to bail, but also a lot of much smaller ones like Granby and Durango and like this and a kid is, you know, their child is born and the child has down's or cerebral palsy or something else and all of a sudden they're moving to Denver because they need to be close to hospitals. I think that that's going to be somewhat similar for your, your listeners that there and they may have to travel to get to the proper care.

Scott:                   One of the things I've heard about is this able account that's been a recent change with the tax law. Have you had any experience with these accounts?

Eric:                      Yes, I have. The able account is the one area that we've really gotten a good improvement in the last five to 10 years. You know, I don't know how much you guys, your listeners know about the stuff with Medicaid and SSI and SSD Yai, some of those programs, but, but the able accounts are the one program that's kind of, that's exempted from the the, the asset and the mutations that you have with with SSI and with Medicaid. And with those you're, you're limited to $2,000 of financial assets and that includes your checking and savings accounts. Your, the one that kills me is that it includes your IRAs, your 401ks, you know, any stocks, bonds, any type of retirement savings. And so the able account is the one carve out that does not have to be below $2,000. And they actually allow that one to grow as high as $100,000. Which you know, it may sound like a lot, 100,000 but if that is your only source, like imagine as the, you know, you're on government, you, you getting your benefits from the government, but the only way you can save for retirement is through an able account, which you can always save 100,000 before you lose your benefits. That's not going to last you very long. So it's a very good step in the right direction and you know, a huge step in that. I love that we've made that step. So, but the able accounts, they're all, we give you a little bit of background on them. They fall under the code section, the US code for under five 29 which is the same code for the college savings accounts. And so they're referred to sometimes as a five 29 okay. And so with that, you know, you, you can put money into those accounts just like you can with a five 29 account, but you're limited, you know, 15,000 a year and all the growth in the account, of course, his tax rate and when you take the money out, which is like with a five 29 if you take it out for educational use, it comes out tax free. If you take it out for something else, then they're going to penalize you with the able account is locked. If you take it out for something that's related to the disability, then it's covered. Okay. But if you use it for something that's not disability related, then you would get hit with the income tax and penalties and all that crap. Oh Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. So they, you know, back, here's the thing is that we can really stretch things on what is considered a disability related expense. Sure. Okay. I mean, you've got the obvious things such as a breathing machine, you know, various medical equipment that might be necessary, wheelchairs, crutches, things like that. Obviously any medications would be covered, but then you can use it for other things. Like you can use it for computers and it doesn't even have to be a special computer. It could just be, well, I need a computer so that I can connect to the Internet so that I can do, you know, maybe I need to work at home one day a week, one hour a week. That's enough, you know, because need to do it. And you can't necessarily go into the office for that one little thing. You know, we're able to call it disability related and basically doesn't very few questions on it. From what I've seen.

Scott:                   Yeah. Like five two nine plans with this new tax law, they've opened up the definitions of expenses.

Eric:                      Right? Right. On those they've said that, you know, you can do, you know, high school and daycare and stuff out of them. So the other thing with the able accounts is that, you know, there's state administered just like the five 20 nines are okay. And so you're going to have essentially an each state's a little different. Sure. You make it a tax deduction on your state income taxes for contributions to the paypal account. So obviously that's on a state by state basis. You know, each state has their own set up and so you know, you, if you're looking for the tax deduction, you would want to get the able account that's offered from your state. Right. We don't care about the tax deduction. Then we're going to look at some of the other things such as what is the, what are the charges and the fees that are associated with it.

Scott:                   Yeah, that's what that was. One thing I was gonna bring up is that you're not wild. It's better to stay in your state for the tax deduction. You're not required to stay in your state,

Eric:                      Right? You're not required to stay in their state. And most of the state plans are accepting out-of-state residents. So you can have, you can, if you live in Florida for instance, you could set up one in in New Mexico if you fall into, or Colorado, the things that you would look at would be what are the fees and what are the, you know, some of them have ATM cards associated with them, some do not. Some of them charge you per transaction fees and some only charger, you know, a quarterly account maintenance fee. Some of them, I think I may have some now that are not charging any account maintenance fees, you know, so you just need to look at all of the different ones and see what's going to work best for you. The able national resource center, they have all that information by state. That's where I go to first as soon as someone is like, yeah. So we're thinking about enabling Catholic, well let's check the, the Abel Resource Center and see what they have. We'll start looking at doing the comparisons.

Scott:                   Yup. Yeah. So I guess some of the specific questions. So when people have children, what are some of the issues they're facing dealing with school? Obviously school and education care, respite care, you know, what do you see in there as far as planning for special needs?

Eric:                      There's a lot of complications if you will, you know, related to education and you know, some of the other, other things that that child may need pre Kinda in the preschool daycare years. Sure. A lot of kids, you know, especially you talk about kids with CP or downs or autism, whatever, they get diagnosed at a very young age or at birth, you know, they're going to be getting started on a lot of these, a lot of the extra educational help, things that, that they have, speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, all of those types of things. And then as you transition from, you know, from that preschool daycare realm, you know, into elementary school, then you're going to get involved with the school system and you're gonna have to do an IEP, an individualized education plan. You may have to do a five oh four, which is, it's a physical with, it's for physical limitations. And so it's going to, that's going to get into more things about how, how the teachers have to work with the child in school, you know, as opposed to, you know, the IEP is really getting into a lot of detail about their, how they're going to be taught, what courses, you know, what level of instruction and what level of accommodation do they need when they're taking tests, all that kind of stuff. Frankly, a lot of that, as long as they're able to stay in the public school system, it's not going to create a planning financial planning situation. But, but you still, you have plenty of times where the school systems, the, the people that are boots on the ground don't know all the rules. Sure. And you know, it's unfortunate, but sometimes you've got a principal at a school who just doesn't understand it and they may try it along their rights. And then that situation, I mean, I know of some people who, you know, know several disability attorneys who will get involved in those types of situations. Sharp along, you know, there's other people, education counselors and stuff, you know, much less expensive than an attorney and can often make a quick phone call to the principal and explain a little bit about what the rules and regulations are and they get things fixed. And those situations, it's better to come to a solution rather than go right to the lawyer and start. Yeah. Yeah. But you do get some situations and we have one here with our school system a couple of years ago where they were unable and or unwilling to provide accommodations for a kid with autism and the parents put the kid into a private school and filed a lawsuit. And I believe that, you know, it took so long if I remember all the details of it, but it took so long to wind through the court that the kid had graduated high school but its old did it. They got the judgment and then school system had to reimburse the parents for every penny they [inaudible] education. Yeah. So yeah, and those education, those private schools that are for know disabled and special needs kids can be very expensive. If you think about the level of assistance that some of the kids need, the you have to have skilled nursing care on site. Those things can cost 30 or $40,000 a year without even really getting to the really expensive ones.

Scott:                   What do you look at when you talk about transitioning to their independence? I know as they transitioned from standing on their own two feet, there's probably some potential for abuses there. How do you ensure a successful launch with respect to financial planning?

Eric:                      Yeah, there's a lot of challenges around that transition to the post high school transition to independence and you know, for kids, young adults making that transition. There's a lot of things to look out for and you know, obviously we're talking about things like, you know, first of all there's housing and you can, you know, things run the gamut there. You know, again, you have some, some people with not very limiting disabilities who are able to basically go in and be fully from shooting productive adult if you will rent an apartment just like anyone else, go get a job like anyone else, all the way to people who are never going to be able to work and they just need to basically live in some sort of a assisted living type of situation. Right. And so there are a number of organizations around here that specialize in helping with those placements and just about everywhere. What I found is that, that those all tend to be very particular to that area. So in other words, we haven't, there's a number of organizations and there tend to be primarily charities or some for-profits in there. Of course they work here in Colorado in other places. Then you're going to have a whole different set of charities and for-profit places. No, they do it in, around Albuquerque, around Riyadh, Charlotte. And you know, around in North Carolina you have different, whole different set of charities. But they're gonna. Once you get connected with those groups, then they will help with a lot of that transition and walking you through a lot of it with trying to find a group home if that's the right setting or trying to find an assisted living, find that spot in there. And obviously, you know, some of it's going to depend, you know, we're going to get into a lot of the things then about what is it going to cost and who's going to pay for it. And you know, for even a situation where we're able to get some housing assistance, then hopefully that help we can get a decent quality home for the kid. You know, with group homes obviously. I mean you mentioned that the potential for abuse, so that's, that's a big concern and especially your more, more challenged the individual. Is that the bigger concern it is, you know? Yeah.

Scott:                   There's a lot, I mean, abuse runs the gamut from, I was thinking of more financial, but you know, there's as the goal everywhere, you know, mental, I would imagine that that gets pretty sticky as to how you prevent that or, or at least at a minimum detected.

Eric:                      You know, a lot of it, it takes a lot of supervision over the people who are providing the hands on care. You know, and it may be all the way to where you say, you know, there must be at least two people in the room and they can't both be the same gender. Cause I mean quite frankly, sexual abuse is a huge problem in the special needs community.And you know, cause you've got these people who have a disability, something isn't working right, but other things are and maybe their their libido is a little bit more, and you see this a lot with, with autism is it, the libido really kicks up, especially in, you know, the start of puberty. They don't have the social skills necessary to, to properly channel that. Right. And so they're kind of set up in a way to, to be abused. And so do you know, you've gotta be very careful with your oversight and making sure that the people who have that hands on care aren't going to be abusing them. You mentioned financial abuse and of course that that tends to be more prevalent with the elderly, although we're going to see that plenty with special needs, especially as our special needs people are getting older. Back in the sixties seventies you know, a lot of people with autism or downs were simply institutionalized and their life expectancy wasn't particularly long. They would typically pass in there by the time they were 30 you didn't have what we have now, which is your, you're starting to get people with downs who are living into their sixties and seventies and you know, they're having children of their own. And you know, when you have someone who doesn't really understand the money and it's really easy for someone who's unscrupulous to take advantage of. Oh yeah. Well yeah, just like you were talking about the libido and the interpersonal skills to handle that. And I'm sure it's the same with money as well, I would imagine. Yeah. I mean, they don't get, or they probably get even less training about money than the general population. There's a lot a lot of people out there who can't balance a checkbox. So you're asking, you know, someone who, who doesn't have the cognitive ability to, to balance a checkbook in your telling you okay. Won't be responsible for all your own money for life. Yeah. No. Yeah.

Scott:                   Well, yeah. So talk a little bit about people with special needs are living longer lives. What do you see as far as the longer term planning? Cause you know, if a parent has a child, they take care of them, but eventually that parent's gonna Pass. So I imagine, you know, putting the care of that child to maybe a brother, sister, you know, how do you handle that longterm planning? I assume there's probably will's involved powers of attorney, all the stuff that you see there.

Eric:                      Yeah, there's so one of the things that we ask everyone to do is prepare a, what's called a life plan. And that's something that is different from your financial plan, but the financial plan will kind of go into it. And so the life plan is gonna talk all about the kid or an adult or individual that we're working with. It's going to talk all about them and what is going to go into great detail about their likes and dislikes and their routine and their medications. And this gets into an incredible amount of detail. And I've seen some of them that run, you know, a hundred pages or more and it's all written by the parents are primarily by the parents. And the reason why is because the parents are the ones who are the caretakers when we get started. Right? But it gets the into you. We get that with, we talk about all of these issues that they, you know, with this special needs person and say, how are we going to help with that? How we mitigate the challenges. So a lot of times, you know, one of the things that I talk with people about is that, you know, I talk with people, oftentimes kids with autism because my youngest has autism. So that tends to be a little bit of a, you know, one on one of the places that I get a lot of people with that a lot of them, you know, the, the autistic person is still living at the parents' house and parents may be, you know, forties or 50s and you know, so we started talking about, you know, Katie, the kids needs to transition out of your home, you know, they need to get their own home of some sort. And how do we do that? And you know, one of the big issues that I talk about with those parents in that situation is your kid lives with you and you're their primary caretaker. And what is going to happen when you pass it is going to be the worst day of your kid's life. Yeah, right. Let's not make it any worse. They're going to lose a parent. They don't need to lose their home. At the same time. Okay. Because that amount of upheaval and trauma may be the sort of thing that they cannot recover from. I don't think that any parent wants to their kid in that type of a situation where the kid is all of a sudden just booted out of their hole with no services in place. You know, not having the, the people around them to provide the support that they need. And, and so we get into, so that's where the wife plan document gets in and talks about all of the things that the kids need. And it will also get into talking about how that transition would work. And so we'll bruise siblings and, and talk with them. Okay. You know, where do the siblings live? Are they nearby? You know, in some cases, you remember talking about this and the siblings are teenagers, right? Well now we're talking with them about what is it that you want to do with your life because just because mom and dad had been telling you since you were knee high to harass hopper, you're going to be your brother's caretaker when they pass away. Maybe that's not what you want. Right. And, and I don't, you know, we don't want to saddle someone with the, the burden of, heing the caretaker for their brother or sister if they don't want that. Right. And so trying to work that into that plan and figuring out how are we going to do it and where are the other people gonna come from? Ums soon as you identify who, who are the friends who are the close, hamily members, you know, if there's cousins or, mf there's neighbors that are close, you know, emotionally close to the child, mou know, do they have classmates that maybe have complimentary skills and you know, you can get several of them together and maybe with three or four they can get a house together and their skills are complimentary enough that they can make it work and, you know, and everyone be safe. But again, we're, you know, we'll get back to those siblings and say, you know, we don't want to unnecessarily saddled them with that, but you know, at the same time doing, you know, if they aren't gonna step up and do it who we is and, and then oftentimes you're going to be saying, okay, well it's going to have to be a paid caretaker and that's going to get expensive and someone's going to have to pay for it. And the magic is to figure out how to make that happen. What sort of things can I put in place? You know, whether it's trying to help out with setting up trusts or, mutting certain insurance plans into place so that these things can get funded and can you do it at inappropriate costs?

Scott:                   So as we start getting towards the end here, what one of advice would you give to somebody that has done nothing at this point to get started on planning for a child or dependence? Life of special needs?

Eric:                      I would say first reach out for help before you think you need it. Okay. Well before it, you know, depending upon what your child's situation is, what their disability is, there's going to be various charities around to provide some assistance. There's governmental agencies that can help. There's for profit companies around that. You know, we'll charge you to help figure out some of these things. But reach out, talk to your financial advisor if you have one. If you don't have one, you know, look around and find a good one. You know, I would recommend finding someone that frankly that has a CFP, even though I'm not yet, I'm working on my CFP, but you know you know, but I would find someone that you know, talk to other parents, the parents of other kids with disabilities that you know, and say, who are they working with? Who are they talking to? Where are they getting their assistance?

Scott:                   I would imagine looking for somebody that has more of the heart of the teacher as opposed to somebody looking to make money. Probably not saying you can't make money doing it, but your motivation is more for teaching with the money, you know, making a good living, doing it. So

Eric:                      Yeah. You know, I'm more about the teaching and trying to get people educated and help them, you know, kind of give them a direction, you know, as opposed to trying to fleece them.

Scott:                   Yeah. Getting them to stand on their own two feet with a little bit of education. Sure. Yup. All right. If somebody was looking for a special needs planner, how would you recommend that they find one?

Eric:                      Yes, that's a great question. And when I look for your professional in the special needs arena, I basically have three questions that I'm going to ask them. The first one is I'm gonna ask them to tell me about a special needs person in their life. You know, do they already, do they have a kid or a parent or someone else, a niece or nephew or whatever that is in, you know, that has some sort of a special need to give them that personal connection. The second thing that I would ask is about what charities that are focused on kids and or special needs folks or you know, medical issues, anything like that that they have donated money to within the past six months. And the reason I do that is that we're looking for people. Look, if someone doesn't have that personal connection through a child or a parent, then I want to see are they doing something else, you know, working with some charities or something to to show that they really are interested in it. Involved in, in the special needs. And then also time bound it to say within the last six months because I don't want them just to say, Oh yeah, you know, I don't need you to make a wish, you know, 15 years ago. Well who cares about 15 years. So y'all going, that's great, but you know, I want it to be something recent we asked that speaks to their specialization, right. Into the exact disability essentially. Yes. Yeah, that as well. And the third thing that I'm going to ask them is, again, it's talking about the charities again, but it's going to be what organizations or charities have you donated time to within the past six months. And again, I'm, you know, we're looking for charities that are focused on children or special needs, adults, medical needs, something else that, that touches this arena. And you're basically between those three questions. It's not a, you know, there's not a, I'm not going to say, hey, if you don't have a kid with a special need that you're count and, or necessarily that you just, because you haven't done something for a charity or some other organization that you're out. But if they don't have any personal connection to it, then I'm really starting to question why are they in it and you know, and then you may want to do some more digging from there. But you know, I think that those three questions are going to give you a lot of information about who this person is and what makes them tick. Right? Someone, hey, tell me about your special needs kid. Well, you know what, when you asked me, I could sit here and tell you all about my son was complex regional pain syndrome and his whole list of issues. Can I tell you about my daughter with autism? I'll talk about my dad with Alzheimer's. You know, these are personal connections and that's what makes me tick. And too often I've seen people who, who say, Oh yeah, you know, I want to, I want to help out with special needs, but they're doing it out of a money making desire rather than a helping desire. And, and I've run into people like that, you know, I mean there was an insurance agent that was really on me a while back calling me every week and once I hit him with these three questions, he never called again. Can you write them in there? It wasn't getting in this door. Yeah. Yeah. Cause he had no connection to it. His whole connection was the son wife insurance to as many people as he could. Right.

Scott:                   Yeah, that makes sense. And then lastly, if people want to, if listeners want to get ahold of you, you find out more about special news play, how can they do that?

Eric:                      Check my website. That is ferociousfinance.com you can give me a call, (720) 432-6842 or shoot me an email, eric@ferociousfinance.com. All right, and we'll link to all those in the show notes as well. Thanks a lot for coming on the show. Any time. Scott, really appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 2:           Okay.